MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Adam to protect his confidentiality. He began his career on a pretty typical trajectory in the business world: working for a few years, getting a business degree, and then on to the next best opportunity.
ADAM: I’ve always had a major love for finance, and I’m very ambitious. School gave me the opportunity to then make a pivot, and that pivot is what then took me overseas. And going overseas, what I discovered was culturally I was much more connected, I felt much more purpose-driven in picking up that role. It’s much easier for you to navigate that corporate ladder being overseas, especially in a small market. I was able to successfully get promoted into my current role, which is C-suite level.
MURIEL WILKINS: When Adam started his most recent role, he had a plan to help him realize his ambitions.
ADAM: I think at first, I was very optimistic about what I could achieve. In much of my career, I’ve kind of been a change agent. So, I approached it more so from the standpoint of there were some big-ticket things that we needed to do around culture, there were some things that we needed to do around the operating performance of the company. I had a number of things that I wanted to do, but key among them was the trust part, was a little bit more difficult for me to accomplish with my boss. I was able to build relationships with my colleagues, but I think it’s just breaking the barrier with my boss is a little bit more difficult than I expected. It’s less about the dynamic with my boss. It’s really just how I approach the dynamic taking an effect on me, and really how I showed up in certain interactions as a result of that dynamic. It surprised me that I didn’t have more courage to say some of the things that should have been said.
MURIEL WILKINS: Adam has always been on a quest to learn more, and that’s helped him succeed. But now he’s finding himself in a place where relationships matter more than ever, and he wants to work on how to improve communication with those above him. I wanted to get more clarity on where he thinks he needs the most work, so we’ll start there.
ADAM: For me at least the further up in my career I go, I have to move away from this notion of trying to please people either above me or below me, and essentially either learn or get the maturity needed sometimes to make difficult decisions, sometimes to confront situations I think with kind of a head-on perspective as opposed to more of a passive position where I look at the big picture and say, “Well, this thing is temporary and it will pass.” But I think I need that maturity in my career to essentially deal with difficult situations, but also just to ensure that I am not allowing, I suppose, myself, to fall into this trap where sometimes I choose not to confront situations that I need to.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, is that the trap that you’re in right now?
ADAM: I think so. My career advancement has moved so rapidly that I am now trusted into some of these positions where I have to also make sure that my maturity level gets up to that point as well. And in certain situations that I think at the core of me, I should have acted better or should have acted different, I’m not seeing that for myself. So, it is a trap.
MURIEL WILKINS: Got it, yeah. So, great that you are recognizing that there’s a dissonance between maybe what the situation requires of you and what you are bringing to it or not bringing to it. But we’ll test that out and see whether it is actually a maturity issue or maybe it’s a cultural issue, or in terms of the organizational context that you’re in, who knows? So, I sort of said is that the trap you’re in, but you tell me what brought you to coaching today?
ADAM: I think for me, the main thing was I recently was appointed to a senior executive role within my organization. Essentially, it required me to take on a very expansive portfolio. And unfortunately for me, the support system that typically you would get with such an appointment and the relationships that you need ultimately to culture and to develop with my boss, it wasn’t there.
I was really questioning whether or not that was me, something that I was doing, whether something I lacked, I wasn’t showing up in meetings or overall, whether it was just maybe a matter of style. And I’ve had relationships with my bosses before that weren’t a hundred percent, but you still managed to do the work. But in this new position, there were certain responsibilities that were trusted upon me. And I was required to be a certain person in some of those situations with this dynamic around me and my boss not necessarily having a good relationship.
But I should have put that aspect aside and still showed up. And the fact that I didn’t show up made me reflect and think, “Well, why is it that you’re acting different in this situation? What ultimately is causing you not to show up?” It felt like The Wizard of Oz and I’m the lion who’s chasing courage or trying to understand where his courage is. Because in that moment, I would’ve pegged myself to be more courageous.
I think for me, one of the things I have to figure out is does the context here matter. Is that something that’s deep within me that I need to work on to figure out that? Or is it just more contextual in the sense that there were other things at play here that really kind of played on the way that I showed up, and that’s a part I’m hoping that I can uncover.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, the lion is my favorite character, especially in The Wiz.
ADAM: Yes, yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so let me make sure I grasp the situation. It sounds like up until sort of this chapter in your career, you’ve been able to manage relationships with your bosses, even if they weren’t the best of relationships. Now you’re in a situation, senior role, have been accelerated in your career quite quickly, and there seem to be some rough patches with your boss. And at the same time, what you’re experiencing is that you’re not showing up in certain situations in the way that you would expect yourself to show up.
ADAM: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so the question is are those two things correlated, right? Are you being impacted by the relationship with your boss in the way that you’re now leading? Which would be new for you because in the past you felt like you weren’t impacted, you were sort of able to go on and do what you do.
ADAM: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And then the question also for you is, am I the problem? Is something happening with me that’s causing me to show up the way, and we haven’t gotten into yet how you’re showing up, but to show up the way that I show up as the lion, right? Or is it because of what’s happening around me that is causing me to do it that way?
ADAM: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So, let me give you a little preview before we kind of unpack it because you said is it context. Well, context always matters. You’re not leading in a vacuum. And what might make you effective in one context isn’t necessarily what’s going to make you effective in another context. And so, yes, does context matter? Absolutely. Is context the only thing that matters? No, because you are in that context. Other people are in that context.
And so there’s a saying, I didn’t make this up, but I will repeat it, which is every dynamic is co-created. Everything is co-created. But you’re the one sitting in front of me, not your boss, not your peers. I don’t have the whole organization here. We’ll take that into consideration. But you’re the one sitting in front of me, so what we’re going to deal with is what is the part that you own in whatever dynamic is happening.
ADAM: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right? So, do you own the whole thing? Nobody really owns everything. You are operating within a context and you are probably reacting to it, but that is probably part of what you can manage. Okay?
ADAM: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, you said what didn’t meet your expectations is how you showed up in certain situations. What is it about the way that you showed up that didn’t align with what you would expect of yourself?
ADAM: So, the way that I typically process information is really to see different angles. So, key decisions, I kind of run them through these three different scenarios, obviously your optimal scenario, your base case scenario, and then your worst case scenario. And I always make sure that I kind of think about maybe some of the small things. You think about the big things, but then you narrow in on the small things. And then really kind of run those things through, again, maybe another set of scenarios.
So, what I was finding was that decisions were being made around me. I was part of that decision-making process. And I couldn’t influence the process in a way that would help the entire room to benefit from looking at these different scenarios, or I didn’t influence it. I would interject and rarely say a few things that would give some of that perspective, but I never really … I typically will stick to my gun and make sure that, okay, guys, you understand we’re doing this. This is what we’re doing, this is what are the potential blowbacks. Tell me how could we deal with this? And that was not happening in these situations. And they were impacting people’s lives, they were impacting the organization. And I just felt that I was not really putting my best foot forward leading. I was almost being influenced either by the process or just didn’t really show up as I typically would really to allow the best decisions to be made.
MURIEL WILKINS: And why is this, before we get into it further, why is this bothering you now?
ADAM: Well, it’s bothering me primarily because we were dealing with people’s lives. Some of these decisions that we made impacted my staff, and that weighs on me more than anything else. The numbers, if we excel one year and we don’t excel the next year, I can always pull myself from off the ground. But one of the things I struggle with is either disappointing people or people being, I suppose, jaded by the type of leader that I am or the leadership team that I form part of. So, that to me played a significant role on my psyche because I felt like I could have influenced the decisions a lot more.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so, you felt like you could have influenced the decision a lot more. Let’s be a little bit more specific. What do you think would have happened if you had acted differently, shown up differently than what you did? What’s the different ending to the story?
ADAM: I think the Hollywood version, it’s that everyone would just come to my perspective and maybe some of those things would’ve been incorporated. But I see your point.
MURIEL WILKINS: I didn’t make a point. I just asked you a question, Adam.
ADAM: I was hopeful that in some of those situations, maybe human element could have been factored into the decisions, and ultimately maybe decisions were either more incremental or more employee-centric, more thought about the impact of the employee. So, in the ideal world, I was hoping that maybe the decision could have been altered in such a way to centrally allow for less of an impact on the employees.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, that would’ve been one possibility, the Hollywood version, that you would’ve shown up the way that you expected yourself to you. We haven’t again gotten into the tactics, but you would’ve done whatever magical influencing you think you should have done. And there would’ve been a happily ever after ending, and nobody would be disappointed, everybody would be happy, et cetera. Okay, so that’s one version.
Is there a version where you could have done the same magical influencing act and there would have been a different ending?
ADAM: Yes, absolutely.
MURIEL WILKINS: What could that ending be?
ADAM: The same exact ending that ended up happening.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. All right. So, I’m pointing this out because I think that it’s important not to confuse whether it’s the outcome that you’re disappointed in, which you’re disappointed in the outcome for sure. But whether it’s the outcome that you can control or whether it’s your way of influencing that you can control. And I think what’s happening is you jumped from if only I had shown up a certain way, and then you went from that to if I had shown up that way, then X would’ve happened, the magical happily ever after ending. And that’s not necessarily true. It could have, but it also could have not. You don’t have that much power.
ADAM: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Sorry, I hate to say it to you. If you do, tell me because then I’ll have you influence everybody I know.
ADAM: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: You can’t guarantee the outcome.
ADAM: You’re absolutely right. And it’s funny because I think the latter outcome, I could see that happening much more than the version that I hoped for. Because like you said, it’s essentially influencing the room.
MURIEL WILKINS: When first approaching this coaching conversation with Adam, it seemed like a large part of his challenge was about the dynamic between him and the leaders of the organization. Whenever I start a coaching session that seems to center around interpersonal issues, I like to make it clear all dynamics between people are co-created. But when I’m only coaching one person, that’s the only set of the equation we can work on and try to change.
This seems like something Adam already understood as he freely spoke about disappointment and regret around his own behavior at work. Without focusing too much on the specific circumstances, it’s clear that Adam wishes he had handled certain situations differently. So, the first distinction to make was about whether he was disappointed in his own actions, his ability to influence, or the outcome. That distinction is important because it helps us focus on what is and isn’t in his control. I wanted to dig into how he views influencing a bit more, so we went down that path as I asked him to define the word.
ADAM: I suppose for me it’s presenting your arguments, your arguments being essentially crisp, data-driven, but also having the conviction and the belief in the arguments that I’m making, and essentially convincing my peers to go along with something that I’ve laid out for them.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, how do you know if you have been successful at influencing or not?
ADAM: In the work context, it typically redounds to committee then makes a decision. So, does the committee kind of move in a direction, let’s say for example, opposite to the view that I was proposing? So, typically, if the committee decides that they’re going to go opposite to me, I kind of feel like I missed the mark. If they’re convinced by my arguments, I’ve convinced them.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right, so let me offer a little bit of a different way or maybe parse apart different responsibilities. One responsibility can be influencing something, influencing the outcome or the process, let’s talk about the process that will get to an outcome. Then there’s another responsibility, which is the decision-making responsibility. The decision-making responsibility has how much control over the outcome?
ADAM: I think a significant portion, yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, right? Whoever decides, they’re the ones saying we’re doing this or we’re doing that. The influencing responsibility has how much control over the outcome?
ADAM: Significantly less, probably definitely in the minority.
MURIEL WILKINS: Definitely less. To what degree? I don’t know, but less than the decision-maker. So, what I’m hearing is you weren’t the decision-maker.
ADAM: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: You were the influencer. And yet you are placing the same success criteria on what I would see for a decision-maker. Did I make the right decision or not? It’s pure, I can see it. If I say yes, then that is a hundred percent. If I say no, then it goes in the other direction. Versus influencing, which is more about increasing the chances that someone or people will go in your direction. It’s more about the effort that you place in that process rather than the actual outcome. So, is there a scenario where you have been able to look at yourself over the span of your career where you said, “You know what? I believe I did the best that I could in terms of influencing the outcome, even though it didn’t go my way.”
ADAM: Yeah, I have plenty of examples like that.
MURIEL WILKINS: You have plenty of examples, okay.
ADAM: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, what is the difference here?
ADAM: I suppose it’s the seniority in my level. I worked as an analyst where my decisions, essentially I would have to take my recommendations to committee. I would essentially make recommendations. I would work long hours and make my case, but ultimately, many times portfolio managers would go the other way. But in this instance, it just kind of feels itself to me like there was a lot more riding on my ability to influence.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right, which is fine. I think it’s just let’s be clear, you didn’t own the decision though.
ADAM: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. So, now let’s go back to the if there was room, if you feel like I actually could have done more, there was more to be done in influencing that maybe would’ve swayed the decision, let’s go back to that to see what that is. So, you said earlier on that I couldn’t influence the decision and then you said I didn’t influence the decision. Which one do you believe it is? Is it that you couldn’t influence in the way that you think you should or that you didn’t influence in the way you should?
ADAM: I would say definitely didn’t. Because couldn’t would mean that there was no discussion, no forum. That wasn’t what I was trying to say. Certainly is that I didn’t. So, there was a forum where, like you said, decisions were being discussed, but I didn’t.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And when I hear the difference between couldn’t and didn’t, you tell me if that resonates with you. When I hear I could not do this, I think about I don’t have the capability to do it. I couldn’t ride that bike because I don’t know how to ride a bike. I didn’t ride the bike, inherent in that to me is a choice. It’s I know how to ride a bike, but I didn’t do it. For whatever reason, I didn’t ride the bike today. In this particular case, what is it that you recognize you didn’t do that you could have done?
ADAM: Yeah, so I think for me, certainly I feel like I wasn’t passionate about why I felt there should have been other alternative options being considered. So, that’s one. Two, to be candid, I would say I wasn’t appeared to really kind of think through, okay, so if somebody counters on a point, have you thought about what your response might have been to anything or if somebody raises the question around information you’re providing. I may have been somewhat under-prepared and was probably relying more so on just really hoping to influence the process maybe out of goodness of people’s heart. Or really just here’s my view, it’s a very humble view. So, I wasn’t as methodical as I should have been in presenting my case.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So, I’m going to rename it a little bit and say you weren’t being strategic. You were sort of using magical thinking, which is of course people are going to think with the goodness of their hearts or of course they’re going to think the way that I think. So, there’s a bit of a strategy part of this, which is the preparation. How do I approach this based on where the context is, how people are going to respond?
And when you name those two things in terms of what you didn’t do was be as passionate about why you felt the other scenarios should be considered more and you didn’t prepare to a place where you could respond to some of the other arguments that were being made, what got in the way of those two things?
ADAM: There is a lot of context to the decision that was being taken. There were a lot of context to that. And what I mean by that is that you mentioned these decisions don’t happen in a void. There was this feeling that the decision was biased towards a different group of people, which I didn’t necessarily have the context of that. So, I wasn’t as passionate as to say if I hadn’t had information, I would’ve been a lot more passionate to the impact that it would’ve had on the psyche of staff. That’s over time I learned that as the decision then kind of essentially led to a lot of blow back.
I would say this goes back to the relationship with my boss. I wasn’t really afforded the opportunity to prepare for the meeting. We sat down and here was a decision I essentially was reading from a piece of paper. So, I wasn’t prepared in the sense. But I’m usually sharp, usually pretty sharp. 30 seconds, I can quickly triangulate and get to some point, but I just wasn’t prepared in that context.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. I know this is hindsight 20/20, is there anything that you feel like you could have done differently in spite of not having the full story, the context that would’ve given you more information to go on regarding the scenarios, as well as being sort of called in an ad hoc way to participate in this meeting? Is there anything that you feel you could have done differently?
ADAM: Yeah, I could have voiced my discomfort around that. Like you said, it’s hindsight. But certainly, I need to at least know that I don’t have all the things that I need to make a decision. And if I can’t make a decision, I can’t be part of the meeting. Therefore, can you give me some more time to maybe sit with this information and then we could reconvene where maybe I am more armed with some information or had more time to deliberate? So, maybe I should have voiced my discomfort at that moment that I am not as prepared for this meeting as the other people because I was just brought in and I really don’t have the context behind how this could impact staff morale.
MURIEL WILKINS: In that moment when you were in the meeting, did you feel that discomfort?
ADAM: I certainly felt it when it came to the moves that were made essentially regarding the employees. I felt that, okay, I don’t understand the full picture. So, there was a discomfort there. I didn’t have the issues around the context. I just operated from premise that, okay, well, this is something that’s either grounded in employee’s performance or it’s grounded in really some metric that we’re using. I really didn’t have the context behind it. I was struggling to understand some of the moves that were being made. So, there was certainly some element of discomfort there.
MURIEL WILKINS: And I know we’re speaking in hindsight, but Adam, this won’t be the last time you feel discomfort and a struggle. So, we’re going to extrapolate from this more to inform in the future, okay?
ADAM: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, you felt some discomfort, you were struggling a little, you started to be like, “What is happening?” And you had said, “I’m pretty quick. I’m usually able to put two and two together quick.” Wasn’t quite happening. And so, how did you respond to that discomfort that you were feeling?
ADAM: I didn’t, and I just went along with ultimately what was being posed. I kind of suppressed it, I suppose. I chose to go along with the group as opposed to really embrace that discomfort that I was having, which most cases it’s usually signaling something that I should pay attention to.
MURIEL WILKINS: And how did that serve you to go along with the group?
ADAM: It did not serve.
MURIEL WILKINS: But there must be a reason you went along with the group. Why? What was your reason for going along with the group?
ADAM: Sure, yeah. It served me in the sense that, again, I’m building this relationship with this boss who we had a distant relationship. It did serve me in the sense that it caused me not to have friction, further friction with my boss.
MURIEL WILKINS: And how did it not serve you?
ADAM: One, it impacted a lot of my employees. And then I think from my standpoint personally, it didn’t sit well with me because, again, it wasn’t the thing that has guided me through my career so far, relationship-based, thinking things through multiple kind of different scenarios. It was kind of against everything that has worked for me so far. So, there was a real impact in terms of the impact, my staff, my employees. But then also personally, there was a sense that I kind of betrayed the things that have worked pretty well for me in terms of my career.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, I just want to pull back for a sec. Because I’m seeing sort of three things visually. There’s the outcome, which is how the people are impacted. Which again, as we sit, we don’t know which direction that would’ve gone in one way or the other. Then there’s your boss and there’s been friction there, and you didn’t want to exacerbate the friction. You wanted to kind of serve that relationship. And then there’s the relationship with yourself, which is what you believe, your voice, your values, your conviction. And I think in the moment what happened or what it sounds like is happening, you tell me, is in order to keep the relationship intact, you took your voice out of the picture.
ADAM: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: You used the word betrayed. You betrayed your own values and your own voice in order to, “seemingly”, I’m using quotation fingers, make the other person okay.
ADAM: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, there’s a dissonance that happens there. So, my question for you is what would it have looked like for you to have your voice in the room and maintain the relationship with your boss, not exacerbate the relationship with your boss? Because it’s already a little tense, so not exacerbate it. You said you like scenarios, so this is a scenario. What would that scenario have looked like?
ADAM: Yeah, so it would’ve looked I think like me presenting, again, presenting the way that I process information or make decisions. Essentially maybe asking him maybe before we quickly jump to make a decision on this, let me understand a couple of things so that I have a better understanding and that I can probably put forward my views on it. And then I would’ve presented some of the scenarios and really asked his views, well, how would you handle this, how would you handle that situation. And then voice my views, but then also say, look, ultimately decision sits with you. But ultimately these are my views and it’s not meant to be personal in any way, this is what I think.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So, if you had shown up in that way and the outcome had still been the same, meaning whatever the people impact was, it still happened, but you had shown up in that way, would we be having this conversation today?
ADAM: I don’t think so. I think I would probably be a lot more settled in myself.
MURIEL WILKINS: Because?
ADAM: Well, because I would’ve articulated and I would’ve not betrayed my process, and I would’ve at least given him support to be able to make a decision without him feeling that I’m trying to undermine him.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, okay. So, you would’ve been holding both agendas versus abandoning yours for the sake of the other or for the sake of the organization. You could replace boss with any number of things, the organization, your team, your peers, your spouse. You’re laughing. I hit a nerve there, huh.
Okay, so let’s talk about that. Is this the first time that you have felt like you have had to betray, again, using your word, sort of subdue your own voice or kind of abandon your way or your voice or your agenda in order to not exacerbate or maintain the relationship?
ADAM: No, it’s certainly happened before. Like you said, there’s so many different dynamics there. You do it all the time in … Happily married, I have beautiful kids. There are many times I want to go hiking on a mountain and watch the stars, the moon, but you have to end up in an all-inclusive resort, eating processed food.
MURIEL WILKINS: Not processed food.
ADAM: So, I suppose as a sacrifice, it’s happened a number of times. It’s happened in personal life, it’s happened in work. There are many situations previously in work where you kind of have to go along with ultimately the decision of the team and kind of put your views to the side just to maintain team harmony. But none of it ever felt essentially so impactful. None of those decisions ever felt like they had such a knock-on effect on people’s lives.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, the level to which you’re willing to, again, using your term sacrifice may be related to what’s at stake. Maybe the sacrifice doesn’t sting as much when what’s at stake doesn’t hit a core value of yours. In this case, you mentioned that at the core of leadership, we’re going back to the beginning of our conversation, you said in the core of leadership, for you it’s all about relationship and people and bringing out the best in people. And so, when you’re in situations where what’s at stake is the very thing that you see at the core and center of your leadership, how much are you willing to give up for the sake of the relationship is the question. So, when I say that, how does that resonate with you?
ADAM: It certainly resonates. I think you’re absolutely right. There’s certainly severity it felt like to this decision. And the part that I think hits home the most, and maybe that’s why I’m using words like betrayed, abandoned, it just felt like the opposite of what I believe in. Yeah, it certainly feels like when there’s a lot more at stake, especially as it relates to the core of what I believe in as a leader, that I’m maybe not as flexible or maybe I can’t live with myself if I don’t stick to my core values in that situation. And it’s something that has just kind of eaten away at me.
MURIEL WILKINS: All kinds of examples and stories tend to come up in coaching conversations, and they’re important because they can help us work through how we feel about certain interactions and start positioning how we might want to behave differently. But it’s often less about the moment itself and more about what it reflects back to the person I’m coaching. As I point out, it won’t be the last time Adam will feel discomfort in his work. But as he starts to grow into his newest leadership role, it’s important for him to recognize these moments of discomfort and think about different paths he could have taken. Adam’s major challenge here is finding a way to not betray his own voice at a time when he’s worried about ruffling feathers with key stakeholders. It’s about being able to hold multiple agendas at once, which is an essential skill leaders need to have no matter what company they work at or what boss they have. After having Adam talk through the specific reasons why he was feeling negatively about this particular outcome, I wanted to circle back to an idea he brought up earlier in the conversation, maturity.
Adam, you started off by saying is it a question of maturity. Actually, what you’re demonstrating is maturity, which is that you know yourself well enough and know what you stand for, that when you don’t stand behind it, you can’t just be blasé about it. Because it matters. That is a level of maturity. I think where you are is am I willing to take the actions required to stand and protect and do all the things according to my values or to what I believe. And that as a leader, the greater you are in scope, the more the responsibility, the more of those types of decisions will come up. And yeah, that’s the reality of it. Then there’s never a perfect answer.
So, that is when we look at leadership competencies, the competencies or the competencies of standing alone, courage, being able to act with integrity. So, it’s not surprising that you’re feeling what you’re feeling. I think now it’s, okay, so when you do feel those things, because when I asked you did you feel uncomfortable, and you were like, “Yeah.” Right? What do you do with it? Do you ignore it? Do you sit with it, say I’m not going to do one thing or the other? Or do you act on it? Those are all choices.
ADAM: And maybe to help me process that a little bit more, these decisions, they sometimes they’re slash of a pen, you have to make a call. And when you get that discomfort, sometimes it takes a little bit more time to think through at the core of it. So, is it muscle memory? Does this then serve as my guide moving forward that I’m always going to refer to whenever I have one of these issues that will allow me to then kind of take myself out of that situation, think about it, and make sure that I speak up? Or is it just a flip of a coin and you kind of have to decide in that moment?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I think it’s probably someplace in the middle in that when you had the discomfort, it wasn’t telling you. Okay, I’m going to give you an example that happens a little too often in our house. It’s like when the smoke alarm goes off in our house, we don’t automatically run out of the house because the house is on fire. Smoke alarm’s going off, we’re on a, no. We’re like, “The smoke alarm is going off. Let’s assess the situation and what choices do we have right now.” Do we stay? Do we try to get the smoke down? Do we call the fire department? Do we leave the house?
The smoke is analogous to your level of discomfort. You are getting the smoke signals. So, there is no rule book of you get the smoke signals, this is what you do. It’s you get the smoke signals and then you assess the situation and what choices are at your disposal. And most times in our house when the smoke alarm goes off, it’s because somebody’s cooking, usually me, and didn’t turn on the vent. Or somebody’s taking a shower and opened the door and didn’t turn on the air circulation in the bathroom, the smoke comes billowing out of the bathroom. That’s the kids.
But you get what I’m saying. So, if you’re feeling that feeling of discomfort, which you say you can recognize. Some people can’t even recognize that, so let’s just start there. But you say you recognize it, you feel it.
ADAM: Yeah, absolutely.
MURIEL WILKINS: If that is the smoke alarm, what choices do you then have?
ADAM: Assess the situation, like you said. Think through the options that I have. I think at the core of it, make sure that I articulate my inner voice, maybe not let the process rush me too quickly. And ultimately, sometimes you have to make decisions, but I think make sure that you articulate your inner voice and really forget about, not forget about the outcome, but realize that you can’t control the outcome.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, you don’t forget about the outcome. You just say what is the outcome, number one. Because to be honest, even though you said in the situation that we’ve been using to illustrate all this, even though you said the outcome was to influence for the people impact, the way that you acted was more aligned with the outcome of preserving the relationship with your boss. That actually is what drove your action.
So, I think a big piece of this is also do you have clarity around what the outcome is that you’re looking to drive and being really honest with yourself around that. Because sometimes the outcome is I want to preserve a relationship or I want to make whatever this group of people happy, the other uber outcome, not that important, et cetera, so I’m going to put that as the number one priority. It’s like competing priorities, and that’s what was happening here. But the way you acted was more aligned with the priority of the relationship between you and your boss. Was that intentional?
ADAM: No, certainly not. I don’t think that, and again, I want to be clear to my prior self as well, but I don’t think I was.
MURIEL WILKINS: And we’re often not. And that’s where you said you weren’t prepared, I think some of these things don’t happen just in the room. It’s not like you came in the room and all of a sudden said, “Oh my gosh, I want to preserve the relationship with my boss.” There had been things accumulating. And so, one of the things in terms of maturing as a leader is being clear about what the priorities are, knowing that they’re all important. But what supersedes what? So, that when the moment comes, you can make decisions based on those priorities. Okay?
ADAM: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, number one, smoke signal goes off, assess the situation. What outcome am I driving to here? What is the priority? Which is aligned with what’s at stake. Just because you’re saying something is super important, which is what you said, the people impact is super important, core value of mine, does not mean that you are automatically going to make it the priority. And that’s where the misalignment was here. How many times do people say, I’m really talking about myself here, “My health is so important to me.” And then when I prioritize my meal, I’m prioritizing the chocolate chip cookie over the carrots.
ADAM: Yes, totally get it.
MURIEL WILKINS: You get it. So, the assessment, what’s important, what’s at stake, is that what I’m prioritizing today? And sometimes you don’t prioritize it. Sometimes you prioritize something else, and that’s okay. Just be clear about what it is that you’re prioritizing, and then your actions should be aligned with the priority. So, there was misalignment here. So, going back to your question around, okay, so what do I do in those situations? Did they happen quickly and is it muscle memory? I think what you do is you take it from this being a very unconscious, magical things are just going to happen in an ideal way, to how do I approach every situation, particularly ones where something is of high stakes in a much more conscious, strategic, mindful way.
ADAM: Yes, I am definitely taking away the words strategic and mindful. Because certainly the aspect around the prioritization of oftentimes a lot of competing initiatives, things that are going to be impacted, it is the constant decisions that we have to face every single day as leaders. And I think as long as I am conscious about what I’m placing before, I think I can sleep well at night. But suppose maybe in this sense that I felt one should have been placed before the other, and I was living in a sense of discomfort there. So, I get that framework and it’s certainly one that I think probably will help me improve as a leader.
MURIEL WILKINS: What aspect do you think will be the improvement?
ADAM: I think for me, certainly to be able to kind of quickly realize in some of those situations, essentially that inner alarm that you’re referring to, how do I assess the situation in that scenarios and to quickly realize that, okay, there’s some kind of decision here that’s happening internally, and don’t shut down as a leader because you have some level of discomfort. But also don’t immediately switch the other side, figure out what of these two, what is the most important priority. And then I think it just allows me to then move on and continuing to develop myself without having this kind of inner conflict around whether or not I betrayed my core values in a way or anything like that. It just will allow me to kind of grow.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. And so, I know that we lasered in on this one particular situation, but I think this particular situation, and the reason that you even brought it up is because part of leading is that you are going to have external conflict, conflict with the other, and you’re also going to have inner conflict where you are debating within yourself what direction to go in. Most people focus on the external conflict, I’ll be honest with you. So, it is a different level of maturity to be able to get to a place where, okay, I’m actually experiencing an inner conflict, which is completely fine. The goal is not to never have inner conflict. You’re going to have inner conflict. If you pay attention for the rest of today about how many times you experience inner conflict, you’ll see. I don’t know, maybe it’s not true, maybe it’s just me, but it’s constant.
ADAM: Every time I look at a menu, it is like inner conflict actually.
MURIEL WILKINS: Every time I decide whether I should go on social media or not, there is an inner conflict. Because there’s not even a decision. The conflict, just social media wins right away. So, it’s a natural tension to have. The more that’s at stake, probably the more you will feel the tension, and it’s okay. And that becomes your signal I probably need to be a little more strategic right now. I probably need to be a little more mindful.
There’s a saying in the leadership world, and I’m forgetting the author, I’ll come back to you with it, but he would talk about you need to go up on the balcony. And as a leader, you go up on the balcony so that you can see what’s happening. And once you can see what’s happening and you get some distance from it, you have a better chance of being able to resolve the situation or get to a resolution versus when you’re actually in it. So, when you get that smoke signal, it’s your signal to say, “Let me assess what’s happening, what’s at stake, and what choices do I have right now.” What’s at stake? What are my priorities? Given that, what choices do I have? What choice am I going to make? Okay?
ADAM: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: And if you can’t feel you need more time, then you say, “Hey, this isn’t a decision I can make right now.” That’s part of your choice.
ADAM: All right.
MURIEL WILKINS: But it all depends on what’s at stake and what’s the risk.
ADAM: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so your question coming in was, you tell me.
ADAM: I wanted to know if I was lacking courage or there was something that was missing in terms of my level of maturity. But I think as you’ve explained it, there’s a lot of maturity that’s there. It’s just sometimes it’s just wrestling with some of these issues internally that leads to that sense of discomfort.
MURIEL WILKINS: The lion had the courage all along.
ADAM: He did. He did.
MURIEL WILKINS: He did.
ADAM: He did, yes. So, I think it’s probably after that I picked that because there’s so many sub-meanings to that, but it’s something that just kind of came to mind. As a child, I loved that movie. And I think you’re a lot more profound than the actual wizard, but certainly I think you’re able to really just kind of uncover what the true issue was. It was, I think from my perspective, maybe I was a little too hard on myself, but I’m sure that you’ve given me the clarity to really understand the framework that I need to operate in as a leader, as my career kind of excels, to make better decisions. And not only that, to be able to live with those decisions that I make, which is very helpful.
MURIEL WILKINS: Amazing. So, your homework is to watch The Wiz and report back to me with what did you observe, okay? I’m going to watch it too. I’m inspired now. I’m going to watch it too. All right, listen, it was a pleasure.
ADAM: Thank you so much.
MURIEL WILKINS: The challenge Adam was facing at work was layered. There were ways he didn’t feel like he was showing up as a leader, but he also had conflicting priorities between doing what he needed to do to maintain relationships versus what he saw as doing the right thing for his team. It’s important to remember that when you are not the decision maker in a scenario, no matter how senior the role, all you can do is try to influence. Outcomes are not completely under your control, but you can increase the chances that something will go your way.
By the end of the conversation, Adam had also unearthed the inner conflict he was facing in these interactions with his boss. It was an important step to remember his core values and begin to redefine what good leadership means to him without sacrificing those values. At the end of the day, it seems like Adam found his voice. He reached out a few months after our coaching session to let me know he had been promoted to an even more senior role.
That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time.
NEXT EPISODE’S GUEST: While I was just getting promoted and I’m starting to work how I’m going to manage the team, people are resigning and I need to maintain them. So, actually I lost half of my team in actually a couple of months, and it was a big struggle for me at that time.
MURIEL WILKINS: I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five-star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. If you want more of Coaching Real Leaders, join my community where I host live discussions to unpack every episode and answer your questions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins.
Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sopha; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. From HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
